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From pandemic to war through a geo-ecological lens (with David Holmgren)

This week we spent a few hours with co-originator of the permaculture concept, David Holmgren, at his home Melliodora in southern Djaara peoples’ country. Our conversation ranged from the personal to the geopolitical, dark green ecology to bright green billionaires, pandemic constriction to war construction, the role of energy in shaping culture to the gaming of the progressive liberal media.

Thank you Su and David for welcoming us into your home, and thank you Miles for once again sharing your two-camera craft and expertise.

We welcome your comments (below), and your support (here). A hearty thanks to those who contributed financially in the past weeks to make this video possible.

References:

Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability by David Holmgren

Future Scenarios by David Holmgren

Crash on Demand: welcome to the Brown Tech Future by David Holmgren

History from the future: a prosperous way down by David Holmgren

RetroSuburbia: the downshifter’s guide to a resilient future by David Holmgren

Shades of Green (Lifestyle) Awards Reflection

Lewis Mumford Wikipedia page

Sébastien Marot

Robert Newman’s History of Oil

63 comments

  1. Lisa says:

    That was great. Thankyou to everyone involved.

    1. Thanks for saying, Lisa.

    2. Kathryn Pegiel says:

      Thank you for this video. It was very educational. It would be great to hear more in-depth analysis from David.
      Thanks Kathryn

      1. Thanks Kathyrn, we’ll see what we can spin.

  2. Joel Gray says:

    Very insightful, absolutely fascinating analysis, especially of the first world war. Are there further articles detailing the energy/war history?
    It is heartening to see us all gravitating towards David and Vandana, Yunkaporta. Of course there are yourselves and also I would add Manda Scott’s Accidental Gods pod cast and Chris Smaj of A Small Farm Future. For insight and support.
    Thank you for your courage and commitment and work.

    1. Thanks so much Joel, and thanks for sharing links for us to dive into. We so appreciate that.

      RE: energy/war history – Patrick referred to F. William Engdahl’s ‘A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order,’ for his doctoral work in 2013. Engdahl’s website offers this useful intro to his more extensive book: http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/History/Oil_and_the_Origins_of_World_W/oil_and_the_origins_of_world_w.HTM

      And Robert Newman’s brilliant History of Oil is essential viewing too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sehmmzbi3UI

      1. Richard says:

        Hi! I look forward to working through this video over my next few work commutes (whenever they are – ugh this year). Just wondering – is Patrick’s thesis available for reading?

          1. Elise says:

            Thanks so much! I had wondered about how Ukraine might be linked to resources/energy.

            I very much look forward to the documentary you mentioned you are working on!
            Thanks again for your work.

          2. Richard says:

            woop.. thanks for the link. Ended up home with a sniffle, so was able to absorb this great video in one go. Many thanks for your continuing mahi. I’ve always wanted to hear David’s position on a wider range of topics, so this was really interesting to me. I’m still convinced I’ve spotted David in a wide shot of a meeting in the film Patu that I worked on preserving recently, but I may be totally wrong. Maybe next time you see him you can ask if he was in NZ at the time of the 1981 protests?

      2. Oak says:

        Both these links are a marvellous counter balance to the standard British education story that is rolled out unquestioned. Thank you.

        1. Aren’t they, Oak. A pleasure.

      3. Hristina says:

        Thoroughly enjoyed listening to the conversation, despite our big ‘sigh’ at the end. Always a privilege to listen to such great wisdom. Thank you for all of your efforts at producing such great videos. Love to all.

        1. Thanks Hristina, we’re grateful for your thanks and for your sighs.

  3. Katherine says:

    Wonderful and fascinating interview. These crises we are facing are so full of complexity – it’s great to hear such an in-depth and nuanced understanding of these events from such a wonderful thinker.

    1. Thanks Katherine, we will hopefully do more such interviews with David. His insights and (as you say) nuance is such a gift in these times.

  4. Oliver says:

    Thank you so much for this video, the energy perspective on the wars of the 20th century blew my mind. Loved hearing David talk about these things. I was wondering what either David or Patrick & Meg thought of the author Vaclav Smil, bill gates seems to like him a lot. I haven’t read any but he seems to big a big picture thinker about energy.

    1. Hello Oliver, thanks for bringing our attention to Vaclav Smil. We watched his, Energy Systems: Transition & Innovation’ 2019 talk on your recommendation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szikg74kgnM).

      Like so many European thinkers of his age there’s always the absence of Indigenous thinking and lifeways (ie an unquestioning belief in empire civilisations), and an underlying belief that somehow ‘the system’ will organically keep innovating and adapting (progressing), which we part ways from.

      While he is obviously a degrowth thinker, and doesn’t share Bill Gates’ saviour-entrepreneurism, Smil (like Gates) lacks the mythic in his analysis, which (for us) renders him a little two-dimensional.

      Nonetheless, there is obviously a wealth of critical thinking and curiosity, esp relating to his context for energetic-ecological shapings of human culture (which certainly borders the mythological, if you’re that way inclined), for which he appears to be highly useful and rare (at least from the Euro-dimension).

      Thanks again for bringing our attention to Smil’s thinking!
      Cheers, Patrick and Meg

      1. Oliver says:

        Thanks for the reply, got a lot out of your response 😊

  5. Jessica says:

    Thank you so much for making this video, so much incredible insight so many of us need right now, please do a part 2!

    1. Thanks for your kind words and support, Jessica! We always love our conversations with David.

  6. Di says:

    What a fantastic interview and discussion. Certainly puts what is happening in the world into perspective.

    1. Thanks Di! We are glad you enjoyed it.

  7. Adam says:

    Thank-you to everyone involved. David’s wisdom spanning farming and philosophy intrigues. An autobiographical work would be awesome! Or, at least video that captures how David has come to such applied and worldly wisdom.

    1. We feel so grateful to have David and Su as elders in our community. David has written many autobiographical pieces. His writings are available on his website here. You might also like to read his chapter in the book Permaculture Pioneers: stories from the new frontier.

  8. Patrick H says:

    I read an interesting new book featuring an interview with Waleed Aly recently in which he advocated for more humility as a fundamental need for the sake of a better human future.

    He made the point that one should not enter an argument unless there is a chance you might lose the argument, which means therefore that you have learnt something. I thought this was a tantalising idea.

    This video, which I watched from beginning to end, was characterised by a lack of humility. There was no sense that the speakers believed that there was a possibility that any of the views put were possibly simply wrong.

    Worse still, there was at times when the discussion turned to Ukraine, a tendency for the views put to be by way of a justification for Putin’s war crimes. Elsewhere, the consistently lucid Noam Chomsky has been unequivocal in condemning the invasion of Ukraine as a war crime, on a par with the invasion of Poland by Germany and the invasion of Iraq by the United States.

    1. It’s so interesting you mention Waleed Aly, Patrick. This so-called journalist has refused to even play with the idea that an unvaccinated person who can articulate with nuance and clarity why they are refusing the jabs, deserves a right to be heard. It’s not about right and wrong, it’s about nuance, diversity and openness to debate. No one is ever really right, but it’s the degree in which people are intentionally deceiving or coercing their audience that really matters. Sounds like you’ve already bought into Aly’s gentle and popular false-balance reportage and won’t have the ears to listen to an alternative analysis, but in case you wish to do as Aly suggests and listen to an opposing argument openly, please check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1JsdfZTYuw&t=494s

      1. Patrick H says:

        I’m not totally clear on the connection? The only association seems to be that Waleed Aly is the interviewer.

        When we reach a point where we are referring to “false-balance reportage” I get very nervous. All the worst despots in history have called out the media as the root of all problems, when in fact the media are the only hope a nation has.

        Call me ‘old school’ as I still read ‘books’, but I read a quote from Goebells just this morning in ‘Democracy Rules’ by Jan-Werner Muller: “It will always remain one of the best jokes of democracy that it provided its mortal enemies itself with the means through which it was annihilated”. In other words, the insistence that freedom under democracy is an absolute right is perilous and lacks nuance and understanding of its complex and tenuous nature.

        1. “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
          — Joseph Goebbels

          1. Patrick H says:

            Thank you. I will reflect on that quote for a bit. It’s of huge concern to me that this moment in which we are dealing with the pandemic is leading to a questioning of democracy. Folk like yourselves are interpreting the phenomenon of viral adaptation to a new animal host as an act of deception orchestrated by our elected representatives in cooperation with corporations (although to be fair, elsewhere you have asserted that it was manufactured by the Chinese).

          2. Patrick, we have never said the Chinese manufactured Covid. We have been clear all along, and it’s well documented in the paper trails and leaked documents, that the USA (through Anthony Fauci) funded or part-funded gain-of-function research in Wuhan, China. The grant applicant was EcoHealth Alliance based in New York. Peter Daszak is the British infectious diseases scientist that heads EcoHealth (in the US) and for many years collaborated with the Wuhan Institute of Virology’s top virologist, Shi Zhengli. They’ve written scientific papers together. Peter Daszak, who led the WHO investigation into the ‘lab leak’ (and said, “nothing to see here” – can you believe he got that job, Patrick?), even boasted about his and Shi’s shared work in 2016, when he clearly stated his colleagues in China have worked out how to make bat coronaviruses (from Southern China) more pathogenic in humans (via humanised mice) in the Wuhan lab. Now, it could be just a superduper, one-in-a trillion coincidence that Daszak-Zhengli’s gain-of-function bat coronavirus work, ostensibly being conducted on behalf of the US-loaded vaccine industry, is taking place a stone’s throw from the wet market where Covid is purported to have started, or it could be just another typical coverup story where someone needs to save their arse and blame it on some random animal zoonotically transferring it to humans in a wet market, and pretend the billions of dollars made from Covid vaccines by some of the world’s most powerful corporations and billionaires, and the quick turnaround (9 months) for new vaccines are all completely unrelated. We may never know the truth, Patrick. Most people who have looked closely at the three major scenarios fall more in favour to the lab leak theory as the most plausible. But there’s a huge PR campaign going on to make sure that story is buried for some years to come bc in this insane and immoral global culture shareholder-science is god and we can’t have s-s-god spoken about poorly, can we. We don’t want to hurt good, hard working shareholders, do we? Of course, there will be those who point the finger and call people like us racially motivated for pointing at a Chinese lab around the corner from the wet market frigging around with bat viruses with US dollars, but that’s just the crazy times we live in. For us it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with serving the money gods, irrespective of ethnicity. We don’t purport to know the answer or be right about lab leak, we are just looking well beyond the fully groomed progressive/liberal media, bought out by the likes of vaccine-lobby folk like Bill Gates: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/11/bill-gates-foundation-jeffrey-epstein-divorce-journalism.

  9. David de Vries says:

    On the permaculture movement: You could not hope to come across two more archetypal iconoclasts than Holmgren and Mollison. Their assorted calls for radical u-turns form the philosophical and practical fabric of pc. A dictum from Mollison – whenever you hear the name or slogan of a government enterprise, expect the antithesis. His examples included Forestry and Health Departments being about undermining the forests and people. I have little doubt what he would have made of the slogan “safe and effective”.

    1. So true, David. The lockstep pitch of “safe and effective” across the western world has been more of the same in an ever increasing flow of bs.

  10. F says:

    Hi

    There is another interesting futurist from a permaculture and science perspective that people might be interested in. He discusses the future from a science fiction perspective — Kim Stanley Robinson:

    https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/your-undivided-attention/id1460030305?i=1000550655125

    1. Hristina says:

      I’m reading his book The Ministry for the Future at the moment. I love his books, particularly Aurora. Thanks for sharing the podcast link.

    2. Thanks F, for the share. Similarly, there is permie educator Linda Woodrow’s science fiction novel, 470, published by Melliodora. It came out a few years ago. The floods in the Northern Rivers of NSW right now are straight out of her book.

  11. nathan edwards says:

    I agree with David that us fringe dwellers need to move fast now. I know Dave but not Patrick (although I believe we once collected mushrooms with Tim Burns). I’m going to be designing a decent sized market garden in red dirt in Guildford shortly and would love input if interested.

  12. Maya says:

    Really interesting perspective and insights from which to view the unfolding inhumanity, thanks to you both… there’s such a lot of info in there to mull over!
    I remember being in Azerbaijan & Georgia in the early 90’s when they had both recently become detached from the soviet empire and as I recall, up to that point it seemed that the ex soviet countries had been used like satellite suppliers of various important goods to Russia in exchange for electricity. Azerbaijan had gas, Georgia food & wine etc. Because of the fall of the union these countries were left holding their goods and had only intermittent electric power.

    1. Thanks Maya! Today European countries are either reducing or banning imports of Russian gas, while Georgia is increasing purchases from Russia, and decreasing deliveries of Azerbaijan gas. This is worth a read: https://eurasianet.org/georgia-buys-more-russian-gas-as-azerbaijan-imports-fall

  13. Kale Sniderman says:

    Patrick, I wonder if you feel comfortable leaving the historical record of this conversation sitting here on your blog without comment or historical clarification. It seems like voices claiming that recent killings in the Ukraine are ‘staged’, are pretty much confined to the Russian government and its military, and David.

    As David says in your video, from 1:21 onward:
    “Most of the so-called mayhem is just fabricated stuff, literally fabricated and set up stuff that’s just studio creations, and its also the Ukraine government creating the crisis, and the nasty thing, of course, is the neo-nazi element are actually shooting their own people, and creating all these false flags, there’s absolutely no doubt about that”.

    Based on this oddly confident interpretation of the reality of Russian’s invasion of the Ukraine, I am wondering if David will be remembered as a man of deep insight into the application of energetic systems theory to understanding the sweep of human history and politics, an understanding that gave him a preternatural ability to distinguish fact from disinformation in all sorts of world historical events; or, if he will be remembered as an apologist for Putin’s mass murders? Yes, western nations’ current outrage about Russian actions in Ukraine is hypocritical, given their own past adventures in Afghanistan, Iraq, and so on. But this does not seem to be a justification for denying Russian culpability in Ukraine.

    In the light of recent developments in Bucha, in which direction do you think David’s reputation is headed?

    You may thoroughly disdain what you call the mainstream media, while also observing that the same conclusions of Russian culpability, and dismissal of Russian disinformation, are being reached by, e.g.,
    bellingcat,
    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/04/04/russias-bucha-facts-versus-the-evidence/

    Human rights watch
    https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/03/ukraine-apparent-war-crimes-russia-controlled-areas

    a Ukrainian anarchist collective,
    https://crimethinc.com/2022/03/31/russia-waiting-for-the-wheel-of-history-to-turn-reflections-on-the-first-phase-of-the-russian-anti-war-movement

    Crikey,
    https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/04/04/refugees-russians-are-executing-fleeing-ukrainians/

    the Socialist Worker,
    https://socialistworker.co.uk/news/dont-let-the-foul-russian-crimes-in-bucha-widen-ukraine-war/

    and Noam Chomsky
    https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-russias-war-against-ukraine-has-accelerated-the-doomsday-clock/

    1. Hello Kale, I think you’ll find that David was referring to media corporations using unrelated footage of the actual conflict their journos were reporting on. This he referred to as being ‘staged’ footage. ‘Staged creations’ are common in all forms of media, as anyone who critiques how images are used to manipulate whatever ideology is being foregrounded, can attest. This is a very common thing in the culture of hypertechnocivility that you seem to be defending. It’s clear if you watch the whole interview, and not cherry pick a moment here and there, that David is neither pro Putin nor pro US (who have the worst human rights abuse track record than any other country over the past century), and that David’s perspective is far more a meta analysis than simply taking a side in the reductive game of right and wrong. And we see you referencing Chomsky in your list of self-affirming blog posts and articles. Here’s what that old fascist said about us when he was speaking on unvaccinated people segregated from society. “How can we get food to them?” asked Chomsky. “Well, that’s actually their problem.” In other words he’d like to punish non-compliers of the state-pharma nexus with starvation. How the Left has changed!

      1. Kale Sniderman says:

        Hello Patrick,
        For my part, I hope to be still as cogent as Chomsky when I’m 93; but to put his attitude in context – ok, I concur it does seem a bit on the inhumane side – he seamlessly equates your views about the vaccination campaign with the far right – um, his lifelong opponents. That’s understandable, because that’s what the evidence mostly shows, especially in the US, where most vaccine disinformation is manufactured, and virally replicates. The great majority of your fellow travellers, on this question, vote in America for Trump, in Australia for UAP. They’re mostly *not* people with a family history of communism.

        Chomsky says this about vaccine resistance (at least a kernel of which I suspect you will agree with):

        “It’s overwhelmingly a far-right phenomenon. Others have been drawn in. And I think there are many sources. Actually, one of them is probably social media, which does circulate lots of dubious or even false information. And if people are wedded to a particular part of it, that’s what they’ll be fed. But beyond that, there is skepticism, which has justification, about the role of government. Happens to be misplaced in this case, but you can understand the origins of the skepticism.

        If the information came from Pfizer and Moderna, there would be no reason to trust it. But it just happens that 100% of health agencies throughout the world and the vast majority of the medical profession and the health sciences accept the actually quite overwhelming evidence that vaccination radically reduces onset of infection and deaths. The evidence on that is very compelling. And it’s therefore not surprising that it’s basically universally accepted by relevant authorities. So, yes, if we heard it just from Big Pharma PR, there would be every reason for skepticism. But you can look at the data. They’re available. And you can — when you do so, you can understand why there is essentially universal acceptance among the agencies that have no stake in the matter other than trying to save lives. You can understand why poor African countries who weren’t paid off by Big Pharma are pleading for vaccines. Their health agencies are.”

        —-
        No, I was not cherry-picking. I patiently listened to every word of your conversation with David. Ok, I take your point: when David says that some of the ‘mayhem’, by which I assume he means various forms of violence, has been ‘literally fabricated stories’, he could mean what you imply he means: media companies using unrelated footage. I didn’t read it that way. My intepretation was that he is saying “we’ve seen footage of violence, but it’s not real, there is no killing of civilians occurring”. Although you don’t seem to feel compelled to justify that approach, I can imagine that, sometime in mid March (?) when your conversation took place, it was maybe still possible, for those thinking about the situation from a ‘deep’ systemic perspective, and aware that misinformation was being generated on both sides, to believe that the bombing of the hospital in Mariupol on 9 March was a ‘literally fabricated story’, or that it was a ‘neo-nazi false flag’ (quoting from your video). Is that so?

        But I am interested in whether, with the benefit of another fortnight’s hindsight, you will now claim that Ukrainians killed at Bucha sometime in late March or early April, are an example, as David predicted, of the “capacity of the Russians to have restrained and maximum power as they have had so far, despite all the… [hand gesture], y’know, really control how things happen, and restrained in just hitting military targets; seems to me there’s enough power there that they may be able to do that without the horrendous thing that happened in Syria.”. No?

        Is it really possible to characterise the Ukraine conflict as being about a persistently imperialist, destructive West/western elites vs. a ‘restrained and in control’ Russian military, without sounding, just ever so slightly, pro-Putin? All one needs to do to not be a Putin apologist, in this case, is to acknowledge that Putin, like many actors in the west, can also be a war criminal, willing to roll any number of people under the logic of his own historical juggernaut, even if he seems to come across, in David’s telling, as historically astute for ‘standing up to’ the western powers because he realised that he sits on a pile of oil.

        1. Thanks for your close scrutiny of this talk, Kale. We appreciate your engaging tone even though we feel you have an axe to grind, esp in regard to David.

          For the pandemic related issues you raise we’d direct you to the past 25 or so videos we’ve researched and produced. In these videos we carefully unpack everything you’ve countered us on here, showing corruption and state-corporate collusion in the liberal media, demonstrating that ‘Health’ has been fully captured by Pharma’s revolving door, and exposing the fabrication that ‘the science is in,’ and anyone on the Left who is opposed to the state-pharma (fascist) nexus are really from the right (manifested via the brilliance of legacy social media’s reductive neo-tribalism).

          To those who trust the legacy medias and public institutions it looks like the science is in, Kale, but really, as we’re seeing in the UK and Israel, the science is increasingly showing immune fatigue and heart wreckage from the jabs. If these clot-shots are the best shareholder science there is, then perhaps we stand firm in continuing to take a microbiome (or holistic biology) approach.

          No one in an official position in Australia is allowed to raise an alarm even when peer-reviewed science is showing alternative research to the official health position (see link below). If cardiologists in Australia were allowed to speak freely without fear of loosing their livelihoods then the whole house of cards would tumble down fast. We can provide you evidence of the gagging of health professionals, or you can find it yourself by examining legal/insurance documents/advice demonstrating how gag orders have been put in place in this country of cowardly compliers. You will not find such journalistic investigations at The Age, The Guardian or in the ABC, (the corporatised Left’s media) for reasons we have discussed in numerous videos before, but anyone with a critical mind can access it, like this link, which we thought was a hoax when we first read it: https://support.mips.com.au/home/12-commandments-to-avoid-ahpra-notifications. While this powerful insurance company cannot dish out legislation, they influence in other ways to keep doctors quiet and towing the line.

          As for the war in Ukraine, many of your concerns are directed at David. We stand behind David’s analysis, as unpopular as it is, and can see how anyone in this moment who raises questions about US/NATO interference in Ukraine is labelled ‘pro Putin’ bc that’s how the reductive media script rolls. It’s the tired old game of good guys/ bad guys that social media, particularly, is so advanced in constructing. This same video is on David’s website so we recommend you take it up with David there.

          1. Patrick H says:

            At the point at which you call Noam Chomsky an old fascist I think you know you have lost your way.

            Nuance and sensitivity seems to be set aside at such times.

          2. When someone is OK with people going without food because they will not comply to a dodgy medical procedure, then there is no nuance left, Patrick, there is only fascism, especially when by simple definition fascism is the collusion between state and corporate power. While we cannot make you see the state-corprate nexus in full throttle in this pandemic, to deny it exists shows a level of naivety that beggars belief. There is no nuance left when you’re willing starvation on your political enemy. This is why it is apt to call Chomsky an old fascist dressed up in Leftist garb. You might like to read Christian Parenti’s essay, How the organized Left got Covid wrong, learned to love lockdowns and lost its mind: an autopsy. In it he writes:

            Almost the entire left intelligentsia has remained psychically stuck in March 2020. Its members have applauded the new biosecurity repression and calumniated as liars, grifters, and fascists any and all who dissented. Typically, they did so without even engaging evidence and while shirking public debate. Among the most visible in this has been Noam Chomsky, the self-described anarcho-syndicalist who called for the unvaccinated to “remove themselves from society,” and suggested that they should be allowed to go hungry if they refuse to submit.

  14. Kale Sniderman says:

    Mussolini’s understanding of the phrase “corporate power” did not refer to what we think of today as “corporations”. Of course there are many reasons for criticizing corporations (like Pfizer), but a notion that corporations comparable to Pfizer sat at the base of Mussolini’s political framework, is not one of them. If large, powerful, modern corporations are dangerous and malignant, no light is shed on that phenomenon by Mussolini’s supposedly having said ‘Fascism…is a merger of state and corporate power.’ If you scratch around a tiny bit, you’ll see there’s some doubt about the veracity of that quote; one reason for being skeptical about the quote is apparently that it is inconsistent with Mussolini’s published views about the relationship between corporatism and the state (so I gather). The late 19th C/early 20th C concept of corporatism is something rather unfamiliar in our current political environment.

    1. We never mentioned Mussolini and we’re well aware that, although there is no historical evidence he defined fascism in this way, he is often attributed as having given this definition of fascism, or rather corporatism. Irregardless, proto-corporatists a century ago cld only have dreamed of corporate power now wielded.

      Corporatism today (pop fascism, as we read it), is really just another layer of colonisation, like ‘development’. There is always a spectrum and in today’s context yes, Pfizer like McDonalds and Monsanto (Dow) stand out as the most advanced.

      However, universities are also such colonial enterprises as they extract, exploit, restrict, discriminate and privatise like the best of them, and they are governed by a hierarchical board who are in turn advised by accountants and other finance crew. Universities are corporations that unwittingly promote the development of aggregating urbanisation and thus ever expanding ecological destruction. They may, in some departments, study ecology and ecological ruination or the psychic effects such dysfunction has in the culture, but the overall thrust – economic and ideological – is to grow the corporate form, which is to grow urban dominance and control.

      We say the corporate form, which is most explicitly embodied in white institutions (both profit and non-profit), is against life. It smashes ecological and social webs and demands dominance, dehumanisation and hubris.

      Rich nation state governments today are in some ways in competition with corporates in the pursuit of dominating and controlling populations, they are, nonetheless, increasingly captured by the corporate form and it’s only a matter of time that these states will be fully post-democratic and the project of corporatism will be complete.

      This is not a world we are working towards.

      1. Claudia says:

        Being Swiss and living in Switzerland for 55 years, gives me the experience of living in a multiple political Parties country.
        Where of course there are also people thinking that some evil person is directing our fate in a very egotistical way. In my experience there isn’t anybody capable of doing so. And hearing you talk about Nazi‘s like it was a simple and correct statement is really disturbing.
        In retrospect… we know that David’s predictions for the war in the Ukraine where completely wrong… thanks to xyz!
        Europe is helping in the Urkrain and the Urkrainians are fighting back in a very effective way….and and and
        As I said…. I don’t live in a black and white political world and I have learnt to live with the fact that you rarely find somebody that shares your political views more than maybe 20%… but you work together and build on common sense, on facts and figures, on sympathy, maybe love …..and most of the people I know are happy to be part of good solutions and new ways of doing things. And being a mum of 3 young adults I also hear what they are up to….. heavy discussion about political themes are going on in our house and even though they grew up in the same household they have a very diverse view on the world.
        I think it’s right to make out what one expects to happen next on this planet, but I strongly believe that „your“ negative outlook is not helpful…… especially the part where you (Patrik/David) are strongly suggesting that there are a few bad men and women who rule this planet and want to push it in their direction, not because they think it’s a good way but because they are ruled by evil intentions.
        The majority of Europe wants peace, countries that work together and don’t start a war just because they don’t like what the neighbors are doing and because they can.
        The heads of our European countries are hard pushed to find viable ways to deal with this war on this continent.
        There are no good arguments for starting a war and only because Putin doesn’t like what people in free countries do, doesn’t give him permission to start one.
        The good thing about this war is that people start to think more about their dependency concerning gas/oil but also goods coming from all over the world.
        Things are changing and their might be several unpleasant moments ahead…. but as a species we are evolving to better structures… and freedom of speech will make sure that the better or best solutions will win.
        Permaculture for me at least means biodiversity (in every structure) pest management is when something gets too big a predator moves in and rebalances the system. This works in Switzerland on many levels of our political system.
        Edgethinking… many possibilities occur in a small place maybe only in a short period of time…. Handling this abundance is what we need to learn…. pessimism is not a natural solution…
        I appreciate yr work (Patrik/David) although I completely disagree on the political part.
        rgds Claudia

        1. Thanks Claudia for your analysis of our conversation. In this age it is very easy for two people to look at the same situation and arrive at a completely different place. You could call this diversity or algorithm manipulation, or a combo. Yes, edge thinking is essential in this time, it’s just there are so many edges. Will the centre hold?. Wherever any of us get ‘informed’ requires scrutiny. Have you been observing Davos right now? Who are your reporters from that place? What is being agreed on there is critical to what is about to occur to us all, what is about to be rolled out. A newly published article (link below) that gives antithesis context for your hopefulness and trust in democratic institutions, states: “In truth, the portents of our current undoing have been visible for years in the objectively bizarre phenomenon of so-called public representatives from multiple supposed democracies heading off to the annual WEF shindigs in Davos to hobnob with other wannabe tyrants seeking to sell out their own peoples. The idea of a ‘club’ of international political leaders ought to be regarded as unthinkable in any democratic country, where politicians represent their electorates/citizens, and no one else. It is clear from the images that emanate from these occasions — the strutting and preening of these toxic traitors — that they see themselves as existing somehow separately from those who elected them. We have fallen a long way from the democratic and republican ideals when Klaus Schwab, the nominal head of the WEF, is able to boast that he has ‘penetrated’ cabinets around the world to force his economic philosophies upon multiple former nations, thereby circumventing the inconvenience of the ballot box and in effect abducting the duly elected representatives of sundry peoples, who bask in his approval and pseudo-affection.” https://johnwaters.substack.com/p/your-government-hates-you-?s=r Brand new Australian prime minister Anthony Albanese flies to Japan tomorrow to meet with world ‘leaders’, including Biden, then on to Davos to get the guidebook for planned mass starvation.

          1. Claudia says:

            Thank you for your answer. WEF will be starting today. In Switzerland we haven’t got a prime minister in that sense that one person is in charge and has the saying for a certain time of years. We have 7 „Bundesräte“ each of them is in charge of a department. Every year the leading person changes. The Bundesräte are voted into office by the parliament every 4 years. The parliament is voted into office by the people. We have 7 different parties. 5 of them are in the Bundesrat. Every City, every bigger area and also the communities in these areas has/have the same system.
            This system makes Switzerland a stable and reliable place. This for me is the best democracy in place at the moment.
            Nothing is perfect… there are always people doing things, that they shouldn’t do. For a long time about 30 years right wing parties got stronger… and green issues are not for them. In the last 8 years things are changing. Green parties from the left and middle getting stronger and they are voted into leading position of there state/community etc. they are doing a good job…
            Why do I tell you this…. there is nobody powerful enough to restrict what is written in the newspaper… and if he can restrict information in one newspaper somebody else will write about it. And there will be talk about the WEF… and not everybody will be happy about there opinions and strategies… but they talk and don’t fight and we can participate…
            Not a perfect world… and to say it again… 20% of the population where not happy with the covid management of the Bundesrat… but the Swiss where asked twice if they agreed on the chosen way and more then 75% said yes. And in this 20% there are also people thinking like you, that there are bad things happening behind the scenes… fair enough and I am sure this helps to keep things in a good place, because people are watching.
            Sending you kind rgds.
            By the way there are English articles written by the NZZ (Neue Zürcher Zeitung) you might want to read those to get a good feel about what is happening in Europe from a Swiss perspective 😉

          2. Thanks Claudia, we’ll look into those perspectives from Switzerland.

  15. Kale Sniderman says:

    …but my point here was not to argue about Mussolini’s definition of fascism, nor to argue with you about powerful corporations, the Ukraine, NATO, or western elites. My point, in bringing up the Ukraine situation, was only this: if one has an all-encompassing, explanatory world view, as you do, that claims to provide a basis for incisive interpretations and predictions of world events, then it is reasonable for others to ask whether your interpretations and predictions stand up to scrutiny. When I started here, I anticipated (wrongly) that you would agree that the Russians were responsible for the killings in Bucha – which I saw as contradicting David’s suggestion, which you endorse, that the Russians were invading the Ukraine in a ‘restrained’ manner. Since that purported restraint formed part of a larger argument that the problems in Ukraine have been and continue to be largely driven by western powers, and because that argument is, in turn, part of a larger argument about world political events fundamentally and pervasively reflecting changing energy availability, I thought you would see my point: that your broader framework makes predictions, but if those predictions are not borne out (if, e.g., Putin’s personal, historical and cultural motives and ambitions are important in themselves, or other explanations), then this suggests there are weaknesses in your broader analysis. So I thought you might agree with me! But, since your response implied that you, essentially, get your information about eastern Europe from Tass alone, it seems we simply live in quite distinct information universes, in which case it is difficult have a conversation about ‘facts’.

    1. Who or what is Tass? Perhaps read Glenn Greenwald on the subject, or the Ukraine equivalent.

      1. Kale Sniderman says:

        Google it, mate

        1. Google? The company spearheading the global censorship regime? Really Kale?

          1. Patrick H says:

            (I like the way you keep referring to censorship while repeatedly closing down my option of replies.)

            Chomsky was clearly saying that the sourcing of supplies was an obligation of those isolating rather than of those who weren’t. To equate that with calling for starvation is mischievous.

          2. Not sure what you’re talking about, Patrick H. How are we closing down your replies? Perhaps refresh your page or empty your cache and try again if you have repeat issues.

            If you think this is how an elder – that is someone who in their prime years who works to bring about peace – behaves, then we radically part ways. Chomsky is not an elder, as his rhetorical “How can we get food to them?” he told Primo Radical in Oct 2021. “Well, that’s actually their problem.” He spoke this after saying the unvaccinated (which today means someone unwilling to take a novel injection that in any meaningful definition is not a vaccine) should be forced to isolate themselves. That you think Chomsky’s hard line is OK is just part of the general societal blindness for the discrimination that continues to harm peoples’ lives and livelihoods that you and countless others do not wish to acknowledge or attend to socially or politically.

            But, alas, we’re just going around in circles, Patrick. This is very tedious. Good luck with your belief in medical fascism. We are not going to engage anymore. You, of course, are welcome to comment anytime.

          3. Kale Sniderman says:

            Don’t be so silly. Tass is the official Russian news agency. That’s the main place where you’ll find the view that those killed in Bucha, etc, were not killed by the Russian military. Perhaps we are talking past one another.

  16. Eamon says:

    Is there any chance these could be released as a podcast?
    You guys should definitely start your own podcast anyway.

    1. Thanks for the suggestion, Eamon. We’re starting to release these videos with an audio-only version. You’ll find them in the blog posts that introduce each new video. We’ve done the last two like this and we’ll continue to publish the audio versions from now on.

  17. Alex Ockenden says:

    Just wanted to voice my support and appreciation for this work both on the part of the interviewer and David. Really great discussion of important issues and a fantastic depth of understanding shown by both.

    Also, my condolences for the way you’ve all been treated and the pressures that have been applied to you and your families as a result of your personal medical choices. Completely unacceptable the way society has chosen to punish people for simple decisions made about their own bodies.

    Unfortunately I expect more of this mob-rule coercion as we descend into an increasingly difficult future. We all need to prepare ourselves and our families to become as anti fragile as possible, as you both discuss.

    1. Thanks for your kind words, Alex. Yes, the pandemic is the first in this new series of significant global challenges, and no doubt there are many more on the way. So how do we remain supple and open, joyous and attentive, and not become subjects of fear? The old saying says something like, ‘Don’t build a higher wall, build a longer table…” In solidarity xx

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