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Tyson Yunkaporta & Patrick Jones on disinfo, RFK Jr & pharmacolonisation

This week Patrick is guest on Tyson Yunkaporta’s podcast The Other Others, which went live yesterday.

In Tyson’s words this is an “[i]ntimate yarn between two friends from two different families, cultures and online communities who ended up in… let’s say incompatible algorithms, during Covid lockdowns, resulting in horrendously oppositional worldviews. Nothing we can’t sort out with a good yarn. Because a yarn is almost like a ‘conversation’ but without the bullshit. Nobody is ‘just asking questions’ in a yarn, because you talk from your relation, not your position. The end result is not a resolution, compromise or any of that crap. It’s… nah I’ll let you listen through and find out for yourself.”

In Patrick’s words: “Our yarn was a frustrating misfiring of truths and beliefs with love, brotherhood and cheekiness all wrapped up into one long moment of trust rekindling.”

We’re grateful for Tyson reaching out with curiosity. It was great to reconnect our families. There’s so much more Patrick would liked to have raised, such as, how we can speak about Russian disinfo without speaking American disinfo and bringing into the mix the Industrial Censorship Complex that’s sprung from various US colonialisms – media, military, medicine, etc. We are relieved, however, that Tyson sees the overprescription of pharmaceutical products as a real thing and that medical fascism is on the rise, although that topic was cut off with the practicalities of him having to leave for school pickup.

So here’s the yarn, unedited and as raw as it was co-created.

In audio:


And from YouTube (we’re working on fixing CommonsTube):

Your comments and curiosities are always welcome, Dear Reader. Thanks for taking the time to engage with this post.


  1. Gregory Norman says:

    Thanks again. I’m on board with you Patrick. The sorcerers hold in their hand- a wand, a wedge , a carrot, a stick, they’ll fly the flag of any colonised medicated minority once they are safely in the service of their hands in pockets do nothing but serve their own convenience colonising mentality- all socially acceptable of course- above reproach or question or debate of course. Hands off , we’re English.

  2. Yeah, so much I wanted to speak, but my flow and thoughts needed space and deep listening around them. I think it was worthwhile to make public an example of ideological misfiring between friends, and it gives me/us a little more context for how ideologies are shapeshifting so radically at the moment. I think Tyson is right to a point when he suggests our algorithms are playing us, but as I’m unsalaried and not dependent on a neoliberal institution or market to live by, I feel this also plays into our differences. Cheers Greg, Patrick

    1. disappointed says:

      definitely felt your pain Patrick – so awful to listen to such rudeness from a host…

      1. Not so much pain, more frustration, but grateful Tyson called for this ‘yarn’.

  3. Kate Beveridge says:

    Hi Patrick, I admire your grace and patience.

    1. Thanks Kate, we’re heading north in July, buskin/campin/fishin up the east coast as far as Bello. Perhaps we can hook up and visit PPFarm? Is it close to a train/bus line?

      1. Kate Beveridge says:

        Hi Guys, that would be amazing, we would love for you to come and visit. We are close to a train station on the Maitland line.

        1. Oh lovely Kate, we’ll get in touch when we know a little more about when.

  4. Gary says:

    Thanks Patrick, for me Tyson wasn’t deeply listening to you. I was anticipating or excited to see some Australian flavour of conversation around the changes and challenges of our times, and feel you’re getting there, and will enable others.
    I would like to see Tyson at a Rites of Passage event, or something similar.
    Love you

    1. Love you too, brother. Yep, would be good to have these discussions in deep listening circles. Feels like a necessary next step to heal, connect and deepen our relationships with one another so as ideology isn’t so prevalent and foregrounded and our gut, heart & mind logic centres are integrated, rather than just Promethean minds firing.

    2. Maryanne McKay says:


  5. Genevieve says:

    I love this conversation was shared so raw.
    Thank you.

  6. Toby says:

    Hi Patrick (and Artist as Family), thanks you for sharing this. As you know, I’m more on Tyson’s end of the spectrum here, but I value getting a little more understanding of your position. I did feel that Tyson – who’s plainly very intelligent and well-informed – needed to let you open up more; it was frustrating for me how often your flow was cut off, and your points consequently left unexplained or unevidenced. Perhaps another session, with a talking stick? Anyway, good at this point in history to hear friends trying to thrash it out in a spirit of understanding. Be well!

    1. Thanks Toby, haha a talking stick! Yeah, good to be having dialogue. Thanks for coming in here. Much love to you, brother.

    2. Maryanne McKay says:

      Yes!…good idea!

  7. To follow up on some points Patrick raised, here’s Dr Maryanne Demasi (former ABC science producer and presenter) discussing her experience of being cancelled by the ABC for her statins reporting in 2016:
    And here is her latest Substack on the most recent medical treatment that’s been harming people for decades but only now finally pulled from market:

  8. Shane says:

    Thanks for sharing this, Patrick. Your courage & generosity continue to hearten. Not sure the issues raised all boil down to algorithms. Is that oversimplification? Seems to imply a degree of passivity &/or ideological preconceptions. Yesterday my physio said that researchers these days lie awake at night obsessing over how to get funding, but in the past they’d lie awake obsessing over how to heal people. I think a deep commitment to healing can outmanoeuvre algorithmic grooves. As for the extent to which & the differing ways individuals opt to be responsible for (responsive to) their own bodies, there’s more than just information. Deep listening to the body itself. And if we can’t listen to our own bodies, how can we deeply listen to others?

    Until Covid, I hadn’t realised the full extent of big pharma’s influence. Totally woke me up. And in recent months every specialist I’ve seen has used some sort of simplistic formula to tell me why I can’t trust my body. My score on the DXA scale means my ribs could crack if I cough (never mind that I work out w/ weights); my FRAX score means increased risk of mortality; my BMI score means I need to force-feed myself even if I already eat my fill 3x a day. I ask questions these experts can’t answer because the manufacturers of the drugs they prescribe haven’t done that kind of research. (And who else would fund it?)

    Bless you.

    1. Thanks Shane,
      This wheel is just a small sample example of Pharmacolonisation:

      Pfizer wheel of hell

      The political left used to critique corporate power and the state-corporate nexus. That’s what’s missing in this present moment, and explains why we’re seeing so much neoliberal gatekeeping in academia. It was very courageous of Tyson to have had me on his podcast.

  9. Weder says:

    Thank you Patrick, I am a regular listener of Tyson’s The Other Others, and I feel, his train of thought got the best of him during this conversation, I felt he immediatly shut you off and didn’t even consider where you were coming from as a possibility, much less his own biases. Perhaps makes me feel a little bit of despair over some of our allies not being capable of feeling what we went through, prefering instead to “other” us. Pharmacolonialism is in front of our noses and yet I feel we are so dense to not see the connection that something has gone very wrong, for example the increase in all cause mortality. I don’t desire another 20 years of forced isolation and injections. It just doesn’t resonate with me, it isn’t alive. Living with fear and avoiding death at all costs is horrible.

    1. Thanks Weder, I’ve been a listener to Tyson’s podcast too, so I was a little prepped. Yes, “the worst conspiracies are in plain sight,’ as Snowden put it. The Pfizer Wheel of Hell graphic (as posted in another comment on this thread) is that “plain sight”.

  10. We didn’t even get to injuries caused by Covid (most likely lab made) and C-19 ‘vaccines’. Here’s the latest peer-reviewed science on treatment for toxic spike protein found in both.
    Long Covid or Long Vax, or is it both?

    You know you’re living in a medical fascist state when the government has a Social Cohesion Division.

  11. On another subject that Tyson raised concerning autism, this doctoral work The Political Economy of Autism shows that, “capitalism has transformed science and medicine from a focus on use values to a focus on exchange values; regulation is largely a reflection of political power not scientific evidence; and cultural and financial capture are blocking the sorts of regulatory responses that are necessary to stop the autism epidemic.” The evidence that autism derives from Pharmacolonisation exists, but there are many gatekeepers, sadly mostly on the political left now, who refuse to engage with this research.

  12. Patrick Hockey says:

    The problem with all of this is that Pfizer is a listed company managed by employees and a board – not secret demons. The five year return on a share investment is a mere 10% (total, not annual) including the covid period. It’s majority owned by funds (mums and dads) not evil genuises.

    1. Haha, the ol’ innocence of the market myth, Patrick. We wonder if your “mums and dads” are aware of the corporate criminality they profit from, as outlined in corporate tracker, or whether they really care that they invest in an industry that, unlike most, has no meaningful regulation or checks and balances.

      Here’s attorney, Aaron Siri explaining the history of the slow step by step removal of proper regulatory process that lead to 30,000 (VAERS data) Americans being critically injured by Pfizer and co’s so-called C-19 ‘vaccine’: Nothing ‘evil’, Patrick, it’s really just systematic corruption. But, some may call this evil, or rather the banality of evil. Maybe that’s where your “mums and dads” come into it, when ordinary people actively see no evil.

      1. Patrick Hockey says:

        Yes, a fair point; the banality of evil or perhaps just being clueless, both about what their money is being invested in and how the sharemarket works – most people wouldn’t have a clue. Ask someone about the multi-trillion dollar bond market sometime and see how you get on.

        Hugh McKay made the point in his book on ‘Kindness’ that 1 in 3 people have some form of cognitive disability and a higher number have only rudimentary reading and writing skills. Millions of Australians struggle to read a basic paragraph with two contrasting ideas in a newspaper article.

  13. Neil Foley says:

    Hmmm, yeah, I dunno? …I listened to this “yarn” today and I’m not sure I could have kept myself so gracious and calm as you did Patrick. I found the host to be rude, overbearing and patronising. If he’s your mate, I’m not sure he knows what that actually means? I don’t necessarily subscribe to everything you say, but I love your passion, your conviction, and your ability to give a calm and reasoned voice to ideas that prickle mainstream thought. It felt to me that you came to talk and to listen, whereas the other guy came to strut his mighty stuff, and when he did allow you to get a word in, he mostly dismissed what you were saying with churlish and thinly veiled putdowns about RFK Jnr or algorithms, or transphobia or whatever. I think you have some amazing (and critical) things to say, and I think there are others out there, who might not necessarily see eye to eye with you, but who would have the respect, good grace and scholarly interest to give you a forum without hijacking it constantly with their own bloated self-importance. Yarn the good yarn! Neil 🙂

    1. Yeah, it was pretty disappointing. Somehow I feel this podcast harbingers in the death knell of the heterodox in Australian academia.

      1. Neil Foley says:

        yeah, it’s quite deflating when you discover that those who you took to be kinda radical, aren’t really that radical at all…
        Neil 🙂

  14. Sid Wood says:

    Just had a listen to your Tyson yarn. Here’s some impressions.

    -He certainly came out hectoring in the boxing parlance, jab jab jab never letting you settle or find your balance.

    -He admitted first up that he was ‘scared’ to be talking to you about these issues.

    -It seemed to be some sort of paternalistic intervention to rescue poor Patrick, but I was sensing perhaps that lefty academia are now getting quite nervous about the political fallout of their wilful blindness. I have been sitting here for two years telling the Mrs “the lefties are gonna hate the political backlash to this which will be very right wing”.

    -Tyson is very concerned about the political ‘horseshoe’ effect, as is the left more broadly. Exemplified by Naomi Klein’s upcoming book about her ‘diabolical twin’ Naomi Wolf. This refers to the ‘scrambling of political allegiances’ brought about by the pandemic overreach. “Jumping the horse shoe” as Tyson puts it.

    -He was keen to avoid the distinction between covid mrna vax concerns and the broader anti vax movement which you have not been part of.

    -He seemed to think you had fallen under the sway of billionaire funded right wing political rhetoric that blossomed during the fightback. I felt from the start that the pandemic quickly became a battleground for the struggle between the old fossil fuel billionaire guard and the high tech renewable billionaire guard. You have not gone there in your discourse really.

    -You have been critical of the media tech pharma-govt nexus, which has styled itself as ‘liberal’. Tyson has picked up on this.

    -At one stage he went for an appeal to authority, stating that only the (billionaire funded) academics could properly contextualise this mess. Conveniently ignores the fact that you sit (more objectively) outside these (corrupted) institutions.

    -Tyson is understandably hard wired against the nation state with its colonial genesis, but seems to be running the risk of carrying water for something far more terrifying (and global) in nature.

    -Tyson seems to be missing the point that beyond a certain level of wealth and power ‘left and right’ are relative, even meaningless terms. It is about interest up there.

    -He dismissed Maryanne Demasi’s work by bludgeoning you with a counter example with which you were not familiar and which may not have been comparable, on which he did not elaborate.

    -He admitted that the main stream media is no longer useful, without accepting your invitation to examine its role throughout the pandemic.

    -Both he and yourself accepted that there are two fascisms now in play, the institutional and the popular. He declined the opportunity to explore the institutional in greater depth by unpacking its liberal mask. His focus is entirely on the populist right wing ‘cooker’ backlash.

    -Ignoring the experience of the tiny percent of unvaccinated people such as yourself, he crudely attempted to lump you into a constructed popular fascism, which for him dovetails in conveniently with the ‘Russiagate’ propaganda op.

    -These left wing academic circles have obviously become concerned that the cohesion of their entire political project is now being seriously undermined by the deformations wrought by the events of the last three years.

    -They fail to recognise that this was only made possible by their own failure to recognise that they were duped into a response that appealed to their collective, liberal, socially just instincts.

    -They are missing the fact they need to join forces with working class cookers to put GovCorp back in its place. Further attempts to advance broader social justice agendas while this open wound continues to fester are doomed to fail. Trust is a vanishingly rare commodity at present. The way back will be tough, with a conservative flavour, lefties best hold their nose and get on with it. We can resume normal service later.

    -He conflated the current backlash against trans people with the neo-eugenecist corporate transhumanist push. Plenty of trans people can see they are being used in this project, but Tyson is missing it completely (or unwilling to speak about it).

    Anyway Patrick I hope you have recovered from this bruising encounter which left just as many bruises on Mr Yunkaporta despite his trademark bravado. I think we have found some chinks in his armour for the rematch!

    We are all in your corner, keep going !

    Tyson has done two interviews with Doug Rushkoff which I am about to listen to. Rushkoff displays exactly the same blind spots as Tyson and Naomi Klein in his latesr book “Survival of the Richest”.

    We really need all these bloody smart people to wake up. Working class intuition is leaving them for dead at the moment despite all their PHD’s !


  15. Josh says:

    Hi Patrick & Meg,

    I hadn’t checked in on the Artist as Family latest for a while but had it on my list. Finally made some space this afternoon, and so only just learnt of Patrick’s experience in May with Tyson. That was a very unsettling listen, and has left me feeling quite out of kilter. Patrick, I really felt for you as I listened. What is standing out to me right now, and it’s only just coming into focus as I type, is the perversely awful price exacted for maintaining personal integrity.

    Acting in alignment with one’s integrity is “supposed to be” a stance worthy of admiration, and yet here it’s rendering you, and all those of us who feel similarly to you, as objects of Tyson’s pity (don’t know if he’d accept that characterisation, but I find it hard not to hear him that way). I can’t help wondering though if he’s unnerved by where you’ve arrived, and not prepared to in fact give it full and open consideration (for fear of what he might find if he was to do so? I don’t know; as I read back over this, to suggest that seems similar in its patronising tone to the sense I have of Tyson’s approach to Patrick).

    Tyson’s experience studying disinformation seems to be exerting an enormous effort to contain all that he now wants that model to hold — far more than it should surely have to do if it was adequate to the task. I’m really struggling to reconcile that with the unboundedness of what I recall encountering in ‘Sand Talk’. It has left me quite despondent right now.

    At the same time, I found myself really wanting to learn more from Tyson about the concrete specifics of what he learned from that disinformation research, so that I could at least test my experience of the past few years against it properly, and see what there might be to what he is saying. Thing is though, I started out in March 2020 in a place pretty close to where he seems to be. But then there were just too many things that didn’t fit neatly into that story. I’m struggling now though to see how he could not have encountered things himself that left him saying “hang on a minute, that doesn’t line up, think I’m going to have to change my container a bit.”

    Why does the model he has have to account for the entirety of heterodox information and ideas on Covid, and the pharma industrial complex (etc) more broadly? Can’t it still account for certain aspects of the world, without having to encompass all you’re grappling with as well?

    Tyson bringing in the Wakefield story (at least, the version that he has adopted, and I have to say, I just don’t know myself, but I’d feel very uncomfortable expounding anything there with such certainty these days) in response to Patrick raising Maryanne Demasi’s experience struck me as particularly off key. I’m not convinced that he actually believed he was putting this forward as a counter in good faith. It almost sounded like a defensive ploy to avoid confronting what Patrick was saying.

    Patrick, I admire the way you approached this, just sorry though that went as it did.

    With best wishes to you all,


    p.s. this article came to mind tangentially re: Tyson’s comments on funding of extremist manifestos by billionaires: I have good reason to believe that the author’s anonymity is not a mask for any ulterior motive, and that he is a genuinely independent observer of the political landscape. I don’t know the specifics of why he chooses to remain anonymous, but given the obvious costs of saying what’s on one’s mind in the current climate, I find the choice understandable.

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